Lpg

[Guest topcarp2]

thinkin about havin the gal converted to lpg.....any info would be greatly appreciated.....e.g

 

decent installers,size of tank,approx cost,and one thing i have heard is u cant take a lpg vehicle thru the chunnel...anyone know why? and if u cant do this then what happens to people who have bought a std production dual fuel vehicle.

[Guest vr6galaxy]

Decent installers? shop around and check out their work! ask to speak to old customers and existing ones hanging around their workshop/waiting room

 

Size of tank? depends where you put it? underneath in the spare wheel mount position, 60/70Ltrs, in the boot and lose a seat and storage space? 150/200+Ltrs

 

Cost? again depends on the system you go for? single point or multi point injection? shop around and see how much the prices differs

 

Not being able to use the tunnel? no loss really never used it dont want to! factory fitted cars cant use it either! but strangely enough caravans, motor homes and trucks with cabin heaters can! something to do with isolation valves or such like?

[Guest marcusheawood]

...It's absurd, but it's true. Despite the fact that Petrol is MUCH more dangerous and explosive than LPG the Chunnel says no...

 

Might be more likely to do with have a large container which cannot be searched attached to your vehicle...you could hide a lot of explosives in an LPG tank then weld it back up and fill it with gas, hey presto very big bomb in the middle of the tunnel!

[Guest marcusheawood]

...sorry, forgot to mention; the LPG conversion industry is riddled with cowboys.

 

Go here: http://www.lpga.co.uk/

 

Use an approved installer, it isn't cheap but it's worth it.

Multipoint means you will only see a slight loss of power, single point is far less efficient and is really designed for commercial vehicles and Industrial plant (forklifts etc.) although the installation is much cheaper.

You will lose some power and your tank range will decrease noticeably, but the juice is half the price so never mind. Also you'll still be able to switch back to petrol if the going gets tough (The Alps?) or you can't find LPG.

[seatkid]

Despite the fact that Petrol is MUCH more dangerous and explosive than LPG the Chunnel says no...

I can assure you that in a confined enclosure a flammable gas like LPG is much more likely to lead to an "explosive" atmosphere than a flammable liquid. I wont bore everyone with the technical details.....:rolleyes:

 

Just lets say Hollywood has a lot to answer for....

[Guest marcusheawood]

I would rather you did actually, if you just want to disagree thats fine.

 

Otherwise back it up.

 

Petrol vapour versus gaseous LPG? Or do you mean liquid LPG versus liquid petrol? Chemical potential energy per unit volume? Flashpoint? Rate of combustion? What do you wanna go for.

 

Petrol has LPG licked, it's way more explosive than gunpowder. :rolleyes:

[seatkid]

OK, I will, but forgive me if I bore anyone.

 

My problem is your loose use of the word "explosive".

 

IGNITION or FIRE is not the same as EXPLOSION.

 

To obtain an explosive atmosphere, you require a body of gas in which the oxygen/fuel ratio lies within a certain range. If that ratio is too low or too high, the atmosphere simply will not explode. (although the fuel may ignite and burn). With petrol, vapour or finely atomised fuel would have to be present in air in a ratio of approximately 14:1 to 18:1 (plus an ignition source) before an explosion will take place. LPG/air mixtures explode over a much wider range of approx 10:1 to 50:1

 

Basically, if you were to spill petrol on the floor of a (train) compartment, it would take a much longer time for it to vapourise and to reach "explosive" levels compared to spillage or leakage of LPG, which would evaporate quickly and disperse and mix with air in the compartment readily. Much lower quantities of LPG are required as the minimum ratio for explosion is 50:1 c/w 18:1.

 

LPG/Air mixture requires a much lower ignition energy than a petrol/air mixure.

 

Also the fact that LPG is stored under pressure increases the risk of leakage.

 

All in all I tend to agree with the Channel tunnels decision. Remember it is an enclosed environment...Petrol may have more kick than LPG, but it would be a lot more difficult to create an accidental EXPLOSION with petrol than LPG.

[Guest marcusheawood]

Here is a quote from envirogas:

 

"L.P.G has an excellent safety record throughout the world both in terms of its storage, transportation and use.

Extensive safety tests have been undertaken with respect to the use of L.P.G and the conclusions reached are that it is substantially safer to use than petrol due to its robust fuel tank being more resistant to impact damage."

 

And from Vauxhall:

 

"LPG tanks undergo extensive tests to ensure safety. They are pressure-tested and strength-tested and built with integrated safety features to ensure their safety in use. All cars have passed rigorous crash tests."

 

I have seen the test data, but cannot currently lay my hands on it. I will update you with references when I have them to hand.

 

What you say is theoretically true, however eurotunnels' dichotomy is that they allow LPG containers up to 47 Kg to be carried as long as they are no more than 80% full and isolated from any appliances.

 

I like many others believe this is an outdated and unnecessary restriction on travelling abroad, and I still maintain that petrol is a much greater fire risk than Liquid Methane.

 

If there is a fire, a petrol tank will explode much sooner than an LPG tank. Many LPG tanks have in fact survived total car fires intact, you can't possibly say that about a petrol tank!

[Guest bosbax]

Hi Topcarp,As everyone else has mentioned shop around but make sure you employ an accredited installer(preferably one that comes recommended).As regards the conversion you won't be dissapointed with it,had mine done nearly twelve months ago and no problems,it's fitted wih the Romano multi point injection and the tank is the underfloor toroidal type,your spare wheel will fit behind the rear seats stood vertical.Been using LPG for 30 years,my other car that wifey uses is a 1998 Saab 9000 turbo which was converted at 40,000miles, now done371,000 miles without any problems.Getting back to the galaxy you should see about 320 miles on one fill costs about

[johnb80]

Here is a quote from envirogas:

 

"L.P.G has an excellent safety record throughout the world both in terms of its storage, transportation and use.

Extensive safety tests have been undertaken with respect to the use of L.P.G and the conclusions reached are that it is substantially safer to use than petrol due to its robust fuel tank being more resistant to impact damage."

 

And from Vauxhall:

 

"LPG tanks undergo extensive tests to ensure safety. They are pressure-tested and strength-tested and built with integrated safety features to ensure their safety in use. All cars have passed rigorous crash tests."

 

I like many others believe this is an outdated and unnecessary restriction on travelling abroad, and I still maintain that petrol is a much greater fire risk than Liquid Methane.

 

If there is a fire, a petrol tank will explode much sooner than an LPG tank. Many LPG tanks have in fact survived total car fires intact, you can't possibly say that about a petrol tank!

Methinks theyre trying to sell the idea........ I wonder if thats why theyre giving it such a positive light?

 

The other point re multipoint / single point. The main loss of power with lpg is due to the slower flame front or rate of burn of lpg in relation to petrol, the timing needs to be advanced by a considerable amount, my 4.2 Range Rover had timing on petrol of 8deg BTDC and on gas 40 deg BTDC, this really made a huge difference to fuel consumption and performance. The other advantage of multipoint is that you don't have a manifold full of gas if it happens to backfire, when it does happen (only happened once to me) it's scary, petrol it's just a muted spit but gas...... people all started staring in my direction, cats and dogs were running for their lives and there was an erie silence for a few seconds.

 

Final bit of advice, unless you do a lot of miles using lpg you will not get your money back (easier on bigger engines), consider the age of your car, add

[Guest marcusheawood]

Look guys, they're not trying to sell the idea they're simply trying to quell the fears of the uninformed.

 

Environmentally, economically and mechanically LPG makes very good sense. Engines actually last much longer running on LPG.

 

Of course you have to run much more ignition advance, Autogas is much less explosive than petrol and contains far less potential energy, like methanol it is very difficult to get LPG to 'knock' in a car engine, thats why you can run higher compression and chuck much more of the stuff in (hence less MPG).

That's also why many dragsters and competion tractors use methanol, they can run stupendous compression ratios with a supercharger producing huge boost pressures and still control the ignition very accurately.

 

The reason the Chunnel authorities are reviewing their LPG policy is that existing regulations have absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever.

It is likely that as "duel fuel" cars become more commonplace due to manufacturer backing these silly regulations will fade with a whimper rather than a bang. :(

 

I don't like toroidal tanks in the spare wheel well because so many modern cars and commercial vehicles rely on the spare to provide additional strength in impacts. Particularly in the case of the Shalaxy the rear crumple zone is reinforced by the presence of a spare wheel. This dramatically reduces crumpling feeding more of the loads into the chassis/floorpan rather than the bodyshell itself. After all those are your children in the rearmost seating!

 

It will help a tremendous amount if installers are properly regulated and accredited.

Vehicles retrofitted with the conversion must be properly inpected and certificated by the DOT immediately after the work is done. Inclusion in MOT testing will obviously provide additional safeguards against deteriorating installations.

 

Kneejerk engineering attitudes lead to bad practice, LPG is NOT inherently more dangerous; and that's just the science.

 

Welcome to the future... :rolleyes:

[Bigjeeze]

I agree that regulation and accreditation will help to ensure quality - although so far my experience of these has been that the "tradesman" just uses this as a means to radically jack up his prices.

 

I don't think the BIO fuels or LPG are the future -

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future but it's too dangerous and expensive to mass produce. so for the forseeable future it is still going to be oil based - it's just going to cost more.

 

 

Government cannot deal with this issue objectively - because too many jobs are involved in the motor and transport businesses. We all know that the majority of freight should go by rail - it doesn't - We all know that mass transit systesm should be the norm - they aren't. When we finally get round to looking at what's best for the whole of society and not just for a segment - then we can look to solve fuel problems.

 

At the end of that debate - you will then have to find the replacement for the taxes levied - so motoring in whatever format is not going to get cheaper - it will just evolve. :rolleyes:

[johnb80]

Absolute rubbish, try this simple test. Take a container with 4kg of petrol in it, light up an oxy acteylene torch and put the flame onto the tank and retire to a safe(ish) distance say, 30 feet. Observe the huge fireball.

Now take a 4Kg propane cylinder and repeat the same test, from the same distance (if you dare).

LPG will explode with devestation all around. Petrol is safer and Diesel even more so, no question.

[Guest marcusheawood]

...and that, as they say, is the end of that...

 

Or is it?

 

I'm afraid John that your assumption is not correct, in all likelihood as the torch ruptured the tank the flame would be extinguished by the freezing liquid spewing from the hole.

 

What a daft experiment!

 

You simply could not raise the temperature of the tank sufficiently (unless you heated it uniformly for some time) for a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expansion Vapour Explosion) to take place before the torch burnt through the steel.

 

There is little or no free air in an LPG container (unlike a petrol tank), and until the liquid gas vapourised sometime after spilling all over the floor, it couldn't ignite (assuming that there was a source of ignition handy).

 

Certainly Hollywood does have a lot to answer for.... :rolleyes:

[Guest topcarp2]

thanx for all the advice guys...not sure wot to do now...lol...methinx me opened a big can of wrigglies.. :rolleyes:

[johnb80]

...and that, as they say, is the end of that...

 

Or is it?

 

I'm afraid John that your assumption is not correct, in all likelihood as the torch ruptured the tank the flame would be extinguished by the freezing liquid spewing from the hole.

 

What a daft experiment!

 

You simply could not raise the temperature of the tank sufficiently (unless you heated it uniformly for some time) for a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expansion Vapour Explosion) to take place before the torch burnt through the steel.

 

There is little or no free air in an LPG container (unlike a petrol tank), and until the liquid gas vapourised sometime after spilling all over the floor, it couldn't ignite (assuming that there was a source of ignition handy).

 

Certainly Hollywood does have a lot to answer for.... :rolleyes:

So you would be willing (or daft enough) to demonstrate this to us would yoy (by video link only please). A discussion with a fire officer has confirmed that him and the boys are very careful when lpg is involved, petrol too has it's moments but not as spectacular (his words) as lpg. When asked a straight forward question "Would you take your family out in an lpg powered car" his answer after a couple of milliseconds of consideration was a resounding NO.

 

I have used lpg myself, I know all of the safety stories told by the suppliers, installers and other interested parties, yes it's cheap (even more so at the moment), environmentally friendly and good for engines BUT........ it's still a bomb under your car.

[Bigjeeze]

I would like to add that although I have no technical knowledge of the propertyies or otherwise of exploding gas cylinders or tanks - I do know that most fireman whilst brave resourceful and thank god - there - are in no way experts in any field other than putting out the resulting fires. :D

 

They are not trained or accredited in any way as to the safety suitability or construction of LPG or any other tanks or resovoirs - You will notice - if you have LPG that you dont require a firemans certificate - but you do from the recognised body. B)

 

Firemen are wonderful - but not usually qualified in any real sense. :unsure:

 

Anyway my diesel is fine - and as for driving a bomb around - go by plane - they do go bang! :blink:

[johnb80]

I would like to add that although I have no technical knowledge of the propertyies or otherwise of exploding gas cylinders or tanks - I do know that most fireman whilst brave resourceful and thank god - there - are in no way experts in any field other than putting out the resulting fires. :D

 

They are not trained or accredited in any way as to the safety suitability or construction of LPG or any other tanks or resovoirs - You will notice - if you have LPG that you dont require a firemans certificate - but you do from the recognised body. :D

 

Firemen are wonderful - but not usually qualified in any real sense. :unsure:

 

Anyway my diesel is fine - and as for driving a bomb around - go by plane - they do go bang! :blink:

Due to the fact that fireman are often risking their lives they tend to know what presents danger to them (sort of self preservation technique), you don't have to be an electrician to know grabbing hold of overhead cables is going to hurt soooooo my views are confirmed by the guy that puts out fires when it all goes wrong and that's good enough for me. All i ask is that you guys driving round with bombs please stay a little further away from me, thankyou.

 

I'll shut up on the subject now until next time B)

 

Regards - JB

[Guest marcusheawood]

Well, I'm overwhelmed by the science!

 

I have absolutely no intention of demonstrating this Theory, or the Theory of Relativity, or the Theory of evolution.

 

You stick to the theory of atlantis, UFO's, CIA conspiracy or whatever else you want to believe.

Luddite attitudes to progress are a refreshing change these days. Come to think of it; I haven't heard a good conspiracy theory in ages.

 

Firemen are strong and brave and they're right to fear LPG in a firefighting situation; a BLEVE is a serious thing to confront.

 

HOWEVER we are talking about automotive applications here, and the kind of scenarios you hysterically describe are really not very likely to occur.

 

A fire is far more likely to start in the PETROL car parked next to an LPG car, and thereby possibly heat the LPG tank to a point where it might explode (assuming the safety valve has stuck).

 

If you superheat a large quantity of water in a closed vessel it too will explode with horrifying consequences.

 

Are you sure that kettle is safe? :blink: Horlicks is explosive too you know :unsure:

[seatkid]

I would just like to add that Heinz Beans definitely taste better than Sainsbury's own brand, but personnally I wouldn't pay the price difference..... :unsure: [must get the last word in...]

[tim-spam]

LPG fuelled vehicles are not allowed to use the cross-channel shuttle.

[seatkid]

Really? I didn't know that... :unsure:

[tim-spam]

Although I once saw a Transit van that appeared to have an LPG filling point on the side - I guess the driver justed answered, "No.", when asked at the check-in.

[Guest bosbax]

Other than the channel tunnel,the only ferry company which restrict it,s use is Speedferries but even they will allow a factory fit conversion,or a conversion that is supported with the correct documentation.The only condition that i have ever been asked to adhere to when using a ferry is to ensure that the lpg is switched from auto to manual when getting on and off the boat.Richie.

[Guest j_mchattie]

Awesome - love a good argument. Got some good cocky remarks from SEATKID and some definite banter between JOHNB80 and MARCUSHEAWOOD - good show.

 

I hear that methane comes out of your butt - there you go - free energy.

 

I've seen fires at petrol stations, and at bottled gas plants. The Petrol seems to have a large boom, then a large burn.

 

The Bottles of gas seem to go kapow big style, then nothing. The bottles afterwards are ripped to shreds - making this BLEVE thing that everyone seems to be talking about.

 

ALSO - the bottle rippage means that shrapnell is thrown out all over the place.

 

Either way, things that go boom are dangerous. Damn, I was always taught that the coal fire was dangerous. Perspective I guess.